Shiva Baby is a 2020 comedy film, a U.S. and Canada co-production, directed by Emma Seligman. Wikipedia’s summary reads, “The film stars Danielle, a directionless young bisexual Jewish woman who attends a shiva with her family. Other attendees include her successful ex-girlfriend Maya, and her sugar daddy Max with his wife Kim and their screaming baby.”
Note: this conversation contains spoilers for the entire movie.
em
OK, so I was the one that suggested this movie, since I thought it’d be nice to do something that was more Myriam’s wheelhouse after doing that very Taiwanese movie last time. They were Ashkenazi Jewish folks, but, hey, the director was bisexual! Close enough, right?
…And now I’m not sure if I should apologize for that assumption or not LOL.
Myriam
HA well, I have been searching for a Sephardi movie for so long and I’ve decided that it simply does not exist. So, yes, close enough!
em
LOL Well, the question is: did you enjoy this movie? Especially taking into consideration how much joint screaming we did while watching it, ahahaha.
Myriam
Well, haha! Good question. No.
Let me explain 😂 I enjoyed the sentiment, but, the whole thing just felt like an elaborate joke where you were like “yeah, this is what’s going to happen. this thing that makes sense.” Then she follows max into the bathroom and… chaos ensues.
em
We’re already jumping to Max-in-the-bathroom shenanigans? LOL
Myriam
You make a good point, we should start at the beginning. Max in the bedroom.
em
My first notes were, “Why does this sex scene sound so fake?”
Is Max a bad lay? Did she have to fake her orgasm? Discuss.
Myriam
LOL!
I agree, very much. But I think all sex scenes sound fake, purely because they are never not off putting to me.
em
Oh, yes, completely agree.
#justacethings, or something, I guess LOL.
Myriam
LOL! Yes! Two aces discussing a sex scene, and I don’t think the results are surprising.
So, max is out the way (for now)
What about our main character? Thoughts on her?
em
Danielle? I’m not sure.
I think most of my thoughts about her sum up to, “Wow, she has bad taste in romantic partners.”
Max, her sugar daddy, is cheating on his (actually very nice!) wife, and her ex-girlfriend Maya is really mean and dismissive. Like… why?
Myriam
Ha!
My thoughts on her are very… Okay, forgive me for saying this, but I think almost every character in this movie is a Jewish stereotype.
em
Ooh, want to expand on that? We’ve already talked a bit while watching the movie about how most of the Jewish stuff in the movie flew over my head LOL.
Now I know how you felt last movie!
Myriam
Haha! Well, I’ll go in order of character.
- Danielle feels sort of like the stereotypical secular jewish daughter thats family is somewhat disappointed in. (Oh hey, like me! /j)
- Danielle’s mom (and dad, by association). One of my favorite characters, honestly. But I’ve never been a fan of the “nagging jewish mom” and “griping jewish dad” stereotypes.
- Max’s wife. (And by association, Max). Not so much a jewish stereotype so much as a stereotype jews have about goyim. It’s literally said in the movie that she’s a “shiksa princess.” Also one of my favorite characters.
These are the first ones that come to mind, but this feels like a common theme throughout.
This is also why I compared it to Unorthodox, in the sense of it being sort of a stretch for goyim to be able to understand some of the nuances here. I think all of these things are ok to have jokingly, but like you said, during the movie, to someone without context it just seemed like a really anxiety filled movie when to me it was hilarious.
em
LOL yeah! I thought the panic attack sequences with Danielle were done really well in the movie, with the way the audio cues worked, but those were the only moments I really “understood”, and so they were what I was left with, since I got none of the jokes!
Oh, also, I don’t remember if I mentioned this to you, but this is the director’s first feature length movie.
Myriam
Oh wow! I would have not guessed that
em
So it makes me wonder how much of Danielle is basically just her.
Myriam
Oh yes, I think Danielle seemed like she was a very personal character. Which is why I felt bad about saying she reminded me of that stereotype haha!! This could very well be me over analyzing
em
No, no, I think that kind of context is good.
Like, one of the things that lowkey bothers me about this movie (and I also feel kind of bad saying this about a seemingly very personal film) is the kind of self-awareness on display.
Hm… how do I explain this… For instance, while there seems to be a lot of moments in the film where the film seems to be aware and poking fun at someone’s misogyny/bigotry/whatever, the film really doesn’t go far enough to condemn it other than just pointing it out. Or, rather, it doesn’t bother reframing it from whatever stereotype that’s on offer, instead just saying, “Haha, look at how they think this is a stereotype,” and never offering any counterpoints, if that makes sense.
Myriam
Exactly! Yes!
em
That kind of missing frame actually made me go, “Oh, of course this is a first film.” Because I feel like first filmmakers tend to assume their audience a bit, and miss explaining what might be, to them, very obvious things.
But, also, I just really didn’t like how everyone, including Danielle, talked about the Gender & Women’s Studies major LOL. Speaking as someone who had been a Gender & Women’s Studies major herself.
Like, the film was obviously critical of people who look down on that major, but it doesn’t actually do anything to defend it in any substantial way. And it’s pretty clear that the filmmaker has no idea what the major actually entails (it’s a social science, not a humanities, for one!) and it felt like it was there only to add conflict/spice.
It felt tokenistic, yeah, that’s the word I’m looking for LOL.
Myriam
Oh yes, for sure!
em
And I think this lack of critical frame is an underlying issue in most of the conflicts of the film. Like, all the biphobic comments, for instance. They’re never challenged!
Myriam
Yes! I think she briefly tried to explain that “Not all bisexual people are exploring” but gets cut off so quickly that its never mentioned again
em
And this is what I mean about her assuming her audience. Since, of course, we (and her) know that these comments are shitty and biphobic, but will everyone?
Myriam
Exactly!
em
Oh, yeah, and the way this movie talks about babysitters. With the framing, I feel like the filmmaker looks down on babysitters, and that’s not a good look.
Also, also, a question I had was: does her parents know that she’s a sex worker, and are using babysitter as a euphemism, or do they really have no idea?
Myriam
Yes! That’s what I’m wondering too
em
Her mom sometimes seems very aware of it, right? But then other times, it seems like she has no idea.
Myriam
Yeah, that seems to be the case with literally everything. The parents seem so in touch at some times then five minutes later they have no idea.
em
Yeah, though I have to give this movie props where it’s due. The way the Jewish parents talked to each other was very relatable, haha. Constantly asking about boyfriends, jobs, the works.
Myriam
Oh yes! As much as I dislike stereotypes, sometimes I relate so much to the Jewish Parents one in particular. (Sorry mom, you’re great, I promise /j)
em
Ah, yes, the universal immigrant experience of parents asking you about boyfriends, jobs, and if you’re eating enough.
Myriam
YES!
em
Speaking of which, did you want to talk about the food? I remember you had Thoughts about the food during the movie.
Myriam
Oh I had SO many thoughts on the food.
What was the sludge that she got two scoops of before dumping back? Why did bagels get so much screen time?
em
Didn’t you say that there are lots of bagels at shivas?
Though, yes, there were a lot of bagels in this movie. A lot.
Myriam
Well, sometimes! But It’s like cake at a birthday party! I don’t expect that much cake to make it into a movie about birthdays.
em
Hmmm, maybe they’re a symbol for something.
What do bagels symbolize?
Myriam
Also, the rude talk about her having an ED!
em
Oh yes, yikes.
Myriam
I think you could be right actually, I feel like maybe not bagels, but food in general, could be in relation to the talk about her having an ED.
I don’t feel like it was an accident that she put all of her food back after overhearing that.
em
Oh, I was just setting up for a joke about bagels being symbols for her life, since her future is like a black hole as she has no clue how to approach it.
Myriam
😂 Oh yes, I’m overanalyzing
em
LOL no, I am making really silly jokes in an effort to find meaning in this movie!!
I think your idea has more merit. Like if I was a filmmaker, my intentions would be yours.
Myriam
This movie felt very fake deep to be honest. It plays with some really cool themes, but it all seems very surface level? Like how she kisses Maya for no reason.
em
Yeah, for a moment there, I wondered if I’d understand that scene if I was allo. I literally did a double-take that made me go, “Am I confused because I’m ace??”
Myriam
Yes!! Like, same with the max and the bathroom scene.
em
YES. I honestly don’t understand what she sees in Max and Maya, enough to keep trying to get back together with both of them throughout the movie.
Like… Max literally cheats on his wife using his wife’s own money.
Myriam
Girl, get with Max’s wife.
She’s the real MVP
em
YES. Especially since Maya is, as I said, extremely mean and dismissive. Like the way she talks about Danielle’s major?? Seriously, no wonder they broke up.
And, even worse, the way she talks when she finds out Danielle’s a sex worker. Oh jeez.
Myriam
Oh yes. Maya sucks.
em
Yes, Maya hate brigade.
Myriam
I think Max’s wife was a little pushy at the end with the baby too. Which makes me wonder if she knew.
em
Yeah, the film kind of leaves it open-ended on that front.
I really wanted to see Kim slapping Max across the face and filing a divorce right then and there LOL.
Myriam
Yes same!!!
em
I hope they do get divorced post-movie, though, and that Max has to pay a shit ton of alimony and child support for the rest of his life.
Myriam
YES!
I would like to say though: Danielle’s hair? Spot on.
em
LOL, of course, can’t forget the best hair award!
Myriam
A very important factor!
I did like the scene where she was picking up the glass and kissing what I assume is a siddur/Chumash
em
I liked her mom comforting her afterwards. I was like, “If this movie had been about this mother-daughter relationship, I might have enjoyed it more.”
Myriam
Oh yes I agree. I love a good mother-daughter relationship.
Especially when they’re wholesome!
em
Yes!! There were glimmers of that here, but I feel like the film, despite being personal, also didn’t want to get too vulnerable, if you know what I mean? As in, it kept trying to diffuse any difficult moments with jokes instead of just letting it breathe.
Myriam
Oh yes, especially in the panicking scene where they mentioned israel/palestine. It got really intense but I think having the jokes thrown in there in that scene sort of ruined the moment.
(I say Israel/Palestine because that’s how they referred to it in the movie, egh)
em
Oh, yes, ew.
Yet another one of those bigoted moments that go unchallenged.
Myriam
Yes!
em
Like, I’m sure the director has actually heard people say this in real life, but, uh, that doesn’t really excuse it.
Myriam
Right, I think it’s ok to put that comment in there. But it shouldn’t just be without context? You know, like, have something that frames it as a disagreeable comment
em
Yes, exactly.
Myriam
Again, I think this is one of those movies so steeped in context and culture that it is almost unwatchable to goyim without someone to explain every scene LOL
em
LOL well thankfully I had you here to answer all my silly questions.
Like “what is shul”.
Myriam
LOL
em
Anyway, I think we covered most everything. Did you have anything else you want to add before we move onto ratings and final thoughts? LOL
Myriam
Moral of the story is to not trust Maya!
em
Wait, ratings first!
Myriam
Oh yes, yes 😂
what system did we use last time?
em
I just gave one rating. You gave, like, three.
So it is entirely up to you. I mean, who cares about consistency, am I right?
Myriam
I’ll make a new system. I give it a two and a half stars.
em
Out of 10? LOLOL.
And just one rating?
Myriam
Out of five!
em
So a 50%. A fail.
Or, a half-pass, if you look at it from a glass half-full perspective.
Myriam
What? 50 is MORE than passing
em
Not in the U.S. education system!
Well, for me… Hm… 6/10?
Myriam
Ohh, lower than the last movie! But more than half
em
It’s because 60% is a D-, and hence a fail, in the U.S. education system.
Myriam
Of course 😂
em
Or barely a pass. Ahahaha. Depends on how nice your teacher is.
Anyway, any last thoughts?
Myriam
DON’T TRUST MAYA!
em
Mine is: Stop letting Maya hold your hand!! Don’t get back together with her!!
Myriam
EXACTLY!
em
Also, Gender & Women’s Studies is the best major. 10/10 em recommends.
You’ll never see that high a rating for any of the movies we watch! So the true moral of the story is: gender & women’s studies > movies.
(I’m joking. Maybe.)
Myriam
LOL
Sincerely, Queers. 